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Post by naill on Jul 28, 2012 10:15:37 GMT -5
Agree, and I accept the personal decision of someone who may say "Livin' without cigarettes ain't really livin', so leave me alone." Fine. But too bad your choices costs everyone else in your health insurance pool.Do you truly think that insurance costs increase because of mountain climber deaths on Mt Hood? Those with sedentary life styles, over eating, and the articular damage of being overweight are the largest users of healthcare. From "It Ain't Necessarily So" ( Ira Gershwin) "But who'd call that livin' when no gal would give in, to someone who's 900 years.?" Perhaps he was thinking about George who died in his mid thirties.
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Post by frankhs on Jul 28, 2012 10:52:21 GMT -5
Do you truly think that insurance costs increase because of mountain climber deaths on Mt Hood? Did I imply that? Sorry, didn't mean to. Smokers increase the cost of health insurance. Climbers trigger the public cost of helicopter rescue squad. And yes, some are volunteers. Those with sedentary life styles, over eating, and the articular damage of being overweight are the largest users of healthcare. Okay, but that doesn't erase the increased costs created by smokers. Not the issue here, but oh I would LOVE to pay into a health insurance pool based upon accepting only non-overweight, non-smoking, demonstrably healthy, non-mountain climbing types. Perhaps he was thinking about George who died in his mid thirties. Perhaps, but George died in 1937, and the song was written circa 1934. ;D
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Post by naill on Jul 28, 2012 17:43:18 GMT -5
Did I imply that? Sorry, didn't mean to. Smokers increase the cost of health insurance. Climbers trigger the public cost of helicopter rescue squad. And yes, some are volunteers. No problem, but that was the implication. What percentage of climbers do you know that require to be rescued? Smokers, yes, and so does poor habits in hygiene, risky sexual activity, overeating, and not exercising. Okay, but that doesn't erase the increased costs created by smokers. Not the issue here, but oh I would LOVE to pay into a health insurance pool based upon accepting only non-overweight, non-smoking, demonstrably healthy, non-mountain climbing types. I would love not to be in a pool of promiscuous male homosexuals or unplanned pregnancies, or those with alcohol or drug abuse. It would be nice that my car insurance is not affected by drunk drivers or those that break traffic laws and cause unnecessary accidents. Perhaps, but George died in 1937, and the song was written circa 1934. ;D Prophetic?
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Post by Holy Schist on Jul 28, 2012 18:52:04 GMT -5
I've spent time on Mt. Hood mentioned here, class IV water, off piste skiing, and for a while would have more adventure some days, weeks or months than many have in a life. A switch was flipped when I became a parent that cut down the risks from some of my activities.
I don't think my biggest risks that come to mind were from decades of adventure sports. I think of emergency landing on a commercial airliner with failed landing gear, escaping robbery in Peru, working in a liquor store, a few blue collar jobs, surviving teen years, the list could go on.
I have experience with rescue from a few angles - people who volunteer, friends as first responders, and a time when they were called for us. A friend and I did an unplanned overnight in a canyon when a boat broke. We were fine but planes and crews were sent to rescue us. We needed no rescue, got out fine. When the sheriff's dept mentioned the cost we pointed out we were fine, prepared, and they jumped the gun. They wanted a few thousand $ but didn't charge us when we showed we were fully prepared and competent in what we were doing.
It's all relative. My father died young, others from illness or needless or tragic accidents. With life being short I will hope for time to ride my mountain bike tomorrow, have a beer with dinner tonight, and be glad thinking back to a night I closed Gormer Canyon instead of a bar.
Some here might remember my father in law killed by a careless driver a year ago now, so risk happens in many ways. The risk he took that day was getting his cabin ready for his grandkids - seems simple - but was ran off the road into the other lane of freeway.
It was risk for me to open by business too but I survived.
Use common sense and take reasonable amounts of risk.
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Post by thedude on Jul 29, 2012 5:27:04 GMT -5
I've spent time on Mt. Hood mentioned here, class IV water, off piste skiing, and for a while would have more adventure some days, weeks or months than many have in a life. A switch was flipped when I became a parent that cut down the risks from some of my activities. I don't think my biggest risks that come to mind were from decades of adventure sports. I think of emergency landing on a commercial airliner with failed landing gear, escaping robbery in Peru, working in a liquor store, a few blue collar jobs, surviving teen years, the list could go on. I have experience with rescue from a few angles - people who volunteer, friends as first responders, and a time when they were called for us. A friend and I did an unplanned overnight in a canyon when a boat broke. We were fine but planes and crews were sent to rescue us. We needed no rescue, got out fine. When the sheriff's dept mentioned the cost we pointed out we were fine, prepared, and they jumped the gun. They wanted a few thousand $ but didn't charge us when we showed we were fully prepared and competent in what we were doing. It's all relative. My father died young, others from illness or needless or tragic accidents. With life being short I will hope for time to ride my mountain bike tomorrow, have a beer with dinner tonight, and be glad thinking back to a night I closed Gormer Canyon instead of a bar. Some here might remember my father in law killed by a careless driver a year ago now, so risk happens in many ways. The risk he took that day was getting his cabin ready for his grandkids - seems simple - but was ran off the road into the other lane of freeway. It was risk for me to open by business too but I survived. Use common sense and take reasonable amounts of risk. I agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a difference between taking what amount to as necessary risks in order to live a normal life, and taking risks for the thrill of the adventure. The idea of the latter - risky hobbies - is what started this thread.
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Post by naill on Jul 29, 2012 6:02:33 GMT -5
I agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a difference between taking what amount to as necessary risks in order to live a normal life, and taking risks for the thrill of the adventure. The idea of the latter - risky hobbies - is what started this thread. Here are the facts from the 2012 incidents: June 2012 - Mark Cartier, 56, an experienced and well-known local climber who'd climbed Mt. Hood many times before, suffered a fatal fall near Crater Rock while descending the mountain. February 2012 - Jared Townsley, 32, of Tigard was found dead below Crater Rock after what was believed to have been a fall in icy conditions. Both were considered by family and friends to be experienced and prepared having climbed the same mountain numerous times. Neither family was innocent as both knew their relative's experience level.
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Post by thedude on Jul 29, 2012 6:17:36 GMT -5
I don't know anything about Mt Hood to say whether or not I personally think its real dangerous. My comments are directed at activities that I already know are dangerous.
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Post by naill on Jul 29, 2012 6:40:43 GMT -5
I don't know anything about Mt Hood to say whether or not I personally think its real dangerous. My comments are directed at activities that I already know are dangerous. I have a few hundred miles on the Appalachian Trial where the elements can change quickly. There is no way to do anything but prepare and use common sense. Being able to stay dry and avoid hypothermia is the best way to ride out a storm. I have only hiked once alone and it was in a very remote part of the park in March when most of the rain/snow can occur. One has to plan well and act with caution. I do not consider staying home on the couch a reasonable alternative.
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Post by thedude on Jul 29, 2012 7:07:50 GMT -5
Hiking isn't my idea of a real dangerous activity. I'm thinking more along the lines of those guys flying around in bat suits, etc.
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Post by naill on Jul 29, 2012 7:23:31 GMT -5
Hiking isn't my idea of a real dangerous activity. I'm thinking more along the lines of those guys flying around in bat suits, etc. If interested, former park ranger, Dwight McCarter's book entitled "Lost" is an excellent read about tracking down lost hikers in the Great Smoky Mountains. I was priviledged to by a volunteer at at time when he was over the Western section of the park. He taught me compass ,orienteering ,and tracking techniques he had honed over his 37 year tenure. Basically, people die by acting stupid which results in hypothermia with stupidity being defined as unprepared and being a novice unrespectful of the mountains. If you think about it, this is the same cause of road accidents.
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Post by Holy Schist on Jul 29, 2012 10:16:32 GMT -5
I've spent time on Mt. Hood mentioned here, class IV water, off piste skiing, and for a while would have more adventure some days, weeks or months than many have in a life. A switch was flipped when I became a parent that cut down the risks from some of my activities. I don't think my biggest risks that come to mind were from decades of adventure sports. I think of emergency landing on a commercial airliner with failed landing gear, escaping robbery in Peru, working in a liquor store, a few blue collar jobs, surviving teen years, the list could go on. I have experience with rescue from a few angles - people who volunteer, friends as first responders, and a time when they were called for us. A friend and I did an unplanned overnight in a canyon when a boat broke. We were fine but planes and crews were sent to rescue us. We needed no rescue, got out fine. When the sheriff's dept mentioned the cost we pointed out we were fine, prepared, and they jumped the gun. They wanted a few thousand $ but didn't charge us when we showed we were fully prepared and competent in what we were doing. It's all relative. My father died young, others from illness or needless or tragic accidents. With life being short I will hope for time to ride my mountain bike tomorrow, have a beer with dinner tonight, and be glad thinking back to a night I closed Gormer Canyon instead of a bar. Some here might remember my father in law killed by a careless driver a year ago now, so risk happens in many ways. The risk he took that day was getting his cabin ready for his grandkids - seems simple - but was ran off the road into the other lane of freeway. It was risk for me to open by business too but I survived. Use common sense and take reasonable amounts of risk. I agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a difference between taking what amount to as necessary risks in order to live a normal life, and taking risks for the thrill of the adventure. The idea of the latter - risky hobbies - is what started this thread. I know but when I started my business I was not alone among current and former associates affected by the specific collapse of our employer and problems related to recession. A few of us who took the sort of risks this thread is about did the best job of getting out of that situation. Some I'm mentioning here have been work associates or friends for 23 years. If I inventory the rigid, ones turned fat, angry and reactionary I don't see the risk takers among them. If I inventory those who have had health, family, other career issues those not doing so well don't have the risk takers among them. Inventory the ones who embrace change and again, I don't see the adventurous (risk takers) among them. Of course there's the risk of something like Steven R. Appleton. Maybe the part that had him flying experimental planes was the part that took him from night shift production manager to CEO.
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Post by blowtorch on Jul 29, 2012 10:32:21 GMT -5
It's not risk taking that gets you places, it is risk management.
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Post by frankhs on Jul 29, 2012 11:02:29 GMT -5
What percentage of climbers do you know that require to be rescued? Whom I know? Zero. (Wiki) 130 fatalities on Mt. Hood since 2002. For every fatality story that inserts itself onto my computer screen, I presume there are probably dozens or maybe hundreds of successful rescues. Since two posters here (out of 5?) said they once had to pay for their own rescue, then that's good news, and my gripe MAY be unfounded. Last week a 68 yr old man needed rescue who had been hiking with his dog on Mt. Hood. I presume this trail was a relatively easy terrain. Relatively! Even so... <<The Clackamas County Sheriffs Office Search and Rescue Unit initiated a SAR operation and were assisted by OHSTAR, the AMR Reach and Treat Team (RAT Team), Portland Mountain Rescue, and Mountain Wave Communications. >> 6 SAR related teams? Who paid for all the above? Mt. Hood climbers apparently know there are multiple SAR teams ready to help. Niche theory. Create an easy niche (in this case an incentive for stupidity) and people will fill it, at least more than they would if the game were: personal responsibilty. I think I'll learn the chords to Queen"s "Another One Bites the Dust" and play it everytime I read about another risky hobbyist who bought the farm. Will help me process a needless death. (And YES there are many worse uses of public funds, and YES there are many worse ways to die, and YES no one can draw a specific line as to what RISKY means, etc etc. etc.)
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Post by naill on Jul 29, 2012 13:38:12 GMT -5
30-40K people die on US road per year. 13 climbers per year seems like a lot and is a lot as a percentage of climbers I suppose. However, in terms of use of public and private service, there is no comparison.
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Post by Holy Schist on Jul 29, 2012 20:44:58 GMT -5
It's not risk taking that gets you places, it is risk management. That's really same for succeeding in the adventure sports.
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