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Post by zenmaster on Aug 20, 2012 13:26:30 GMT -5
I considered medical school as college. My point is that there people that have college degrees that do translate into job skills.
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Post by herbhunter on Aug 20, 2012 13:31:13 GMT -5
I think way too much emphasis is placed on the college track today. I would like to see a renewed emphasis placed on having the option to pursue more vocational schooling. There are reams of jobs that can't be filled in manufacturing, because no one has the skills, and it would seem that most youngsters don't want to learn them. ...I agree. Germany seems to be doing a better job of preparing the labor force for the type of jobs that industry needs. I haven't yet read this article but I assume it covers what I think the German system offers that we should consider. www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149927290/the-secret-to-germanys-low-youth-unemployment
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Post by zenmaster on Aug 20, 2012 13:36:53 GMT -5
I don't doubt that a bit. I have argued for a long, long time that schools shouldn't be so focused on college prep. But, our culture has developed this attitude that if a kid doesn't go to college that they are a failure, and that's just flat out crazy. Exactly correct! I Agee too. College is not for everyone and a person should not use whether or not they have a degree as a measure of success or failure. I have several degrees and I appreciate the experience but it is not the yard stick I use to measure my success or worth.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:01:12 GMT -5
True. Reminds me of a strange story. While I was in college, I took a summer job at a local deli and bagel shop. The dishwasher there was a Russian immigrant named Boris (really). He was sort of a loner and kept to himself, but he was always reading on his breaks. In striking up a conversation, I learned that he actually had a PhD. in physics! Seems that he was having trouble getting his degrees officially recognised in the US, so he took the job. That's called keeping the commies in their place! Just kidding, of course. Interesting story and thanks for sharing. I hope he found more meaningful employment.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:03:38 GMT -5
Much of the pushing comes from parents. It's often when there are not enough funds for AP classes. The pushing can also come from parents, teachers and administrations where they want successful kids who can compete with the world. In an era where the public schools have to accept those rejected by the private schools or some who would otherwise be in institutions or jails you still have to try and get some who can make it in the better colleges and universities. I've heard the 'pushing comes from the parents' excuse. I call it an excuse because it's the administration's job to keep the parents demands in-line and let the parents decide whether or not to keep their kids in that school. Tons of AP classes does not equal competing in the world, not by a longshot. That's the most quoted falsehood out there. Do you not think private schools accept students kicked out of public schools? My son's school has accepted kids kicked out of publics due to discipline issues, etc. What has happened almost universally is that kid completely turns around. Why? Smaller classes, more interesting subjects, a less-rejecting student body. I get what you're saying, but you're forgetting the other entity in the loop, and that's the school board and/or state. That's where it gets political and people make decisions that sound good but don't necessarily work. Remember, that's how we got all this standardized testing that most people don't think it works well or is outright counterproductive.
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Post by zenmaster on Aug 20, 2012 14:09:35 GMT -5
True. Reminds me of a strange story. While I was in college, I took a summer job at a local deli and bagel shop. The dishwasher there was a Russian immigrant named Boris (really). He was sort of a loner and kept to himself, but he was always reading on his breaks. In striking up a conversation, I learned that he actually had a PhD. in physics! Seems that he was having trouble getting his degrees officially recognised in the US, so he took the job. There is an episode of the Big Bang Theory on TV where a guy was a janitor but in Russia he had been a physicist. I have a friend who has a Ph.D and after working for 15 years in his field it was time to move on and he became a cook!
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:12:44 GMT -5
Public school systems have caused their own issues by hiring unions that protect teachers and not students. That's the point that is almost always overlooked in discussions about union and school reform - that children as a whole have no advocate in the system, while teachers do. As such, any time reforms are negotiated, the kids have no one that is solely looking out for them - everyone else on their side, at best, has competing interests to satisfy.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:21:18 GMT -5
I think way too much emphasis is placed on the college track today. I would like to see a renewed emphasis placed on having the option to pursue more vocational schooling. There are reams of jobs that can't be filled in manufacturing, because no one has the skills, and it would seem that most youngsters don't want to learn them. For a large percentage of people, college is a waste of time and money, because honestly, the degrees they receive don't translate into a job skill. I agree, and not just in manufacturing. The trades and many computer tech jobs and other skilled labor doesn't need a college degree. If those people want to pursue those fields and still get a degree, more power to them. But, as it stands now, our culture tells high school kids that there is only one acceptable measure of success, and that's going to college. Choosing a trade, vocational skill, etc. simply isn't considered a good choice and they're all told forever that going to college is the only way. Some people remember to give lip service to the trades and vocations, but not usually, and they certainly don't mean it. FWIW, I did 4 years of wood shop, 3 years of metal shop, and 2 of auto shop in high school. I never planned on going to college, so while I struggled early in college due to poor study habits, I learned a lot of skills that have been handy and meaningful to me for my whole life. Even now, I'm a database programmer, and while my electrical engineer degree looks good on my resume, it has nothing to do with my job. And my masters in late medieval and early modern European history doesn't add anything either. That being said, I don't think my education was a waste at all. It wasn't that helpful for my job, but I don't think an education should just be about getting a job. It's really more about training people who think, write, solve problems, etc. That's the real value, and as such both of my degrees have helped me in my job, but in a very indirect way.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:24:11 GMT -5
I think physicians come out of college with marketable skills. There are no physicans coming out of college. They come out with degrees like everyone else. They go to medical school to study medicine and post graduate intern and residencies to become physicians. Surgical residencies can last 5-7 years in some cases. This is the trade school of medicine. I agree with you here. The law and medicine are really trades. Same thing with engineering, actually, and I always thought there should be a similar type of grad school arrangement for engineers because a newly minted engineer with a bachelor's degree isn't really capable of doing any engineering yet. That usually comes with experience.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:29:30 GMT -5
I think way too much emphasis is placed on the college track today. I would like to see a renewed emphasis placed on having the option to pursue more vocational schooling. There are reams of jobs that can't be filled in manufacturing, because no one has the skills, and it would seem that most youngsters don't want to learn them. ...I agree. Germany seems to be doing a better job of preparing the labor force for the type of jobs that industry needs. I haven't yet read this article but I assume it covers what I think the German system offers that we should consider. www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149927290/the-secret-to-germanys-low-youth-unemploymentMany, or most, of the European education systems track their students into labor, vocations, and college. I think those are roughly the three that Germany uses. Americans tend to think that this type of steering is unfair, but I think it should be considered. This topic came when I took German in grad school (so, about 4 or 5 years ago), and everyone I talked to (i.e., native born Germans) said going the vocational route vs. the college route wasn't looked down upon at all.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 14:35:07 GMT -5
The point wasn't about all college degrees. Engineering, accounting, computer science, etc, can lead to good jobs. Many degrees don't. Having solid vocational schools run in conjunction with industry leading to apprenticeships etc, would be a great way to fill specific needs. There is lots of money to be made in modern industry today, and from what I read they are having a hard time finding people with the skills needed. I know what you're saying and sorry if I got off track. FWIW, I don't think college should ever be just about getting a job. When that happens, the whole process is undermined and just becomes a jobs training program with not much attention paid to subjects that aren't related to getting a job.
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Post by blowtorch on Aug 20, 2012 14:37:53 GMT -5
I think way too much emphasis is placed on the college track today. I would like to see a renewed emphasis placed on having the option to pursue more vocational schooling. There are reams of jobs that can't be filled in manufacturing, because no one has the skills, and it would seem that most youngsters don't want to learn them. ...I agree. Germany seems to be doing a better job of preparing the labor force for the type of jobs that industry needs. I haven't yet read this article but I assume it covers what I think the German system offers that we should consider. www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149927290/the-secret-to-germanys-low-youth-unemploymentGood article. We need to teach people how to do stuff.
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Post by zenmaster on Aug 20, 2012 14:41:12 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation.
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Post by blowtorch on Aug 20, 2012 14:53:24 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation. If you have an automated assembly line, someone has to maintain those machines, and someone has to build them. Automation has eliminated many nonskilled labor positions in manufacturing, but has created other types of jobs.
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Post by naill on Aug 20, 2012 15:10:50 GMT -5
I agree with you here. The law and medicine are really trades. Same thing with engineering, actually, and I always thought there should be a similar type of grad school arrangement for engineers because a newly minted engineer with a bachelor's degree isn't really capable of doing any engineering yet. That usually comes with experience. If engineering were a trade school, I would have gone into engineering. I love learning how stuff works, but its not something I do well by reading a book. I need to get my hand dirty to learn best.
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