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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 15:35:25 GMT -5
I agree with you here. The law and medicine are really trades. Same thing with engineering, actually, and I always thought there should be a similar type of grad school arrangement for engineers because a newly minted engineer with a bachelor's degree isn't really capable of doing any engineering yet. That usually comes with experience. If engineering were a trade school, I would have gone into engineering. I love learning how stuff works, but its not something I do well by reading a book. I need to get my hand dirty to learn best. No, I meant a system similar to what doctors and lawyers do, where an engineer would get an engineering oriented undergrad degree, and then get advanced training in a grad school.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 15:36:40 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation. We're always going to need carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc. Those people have real skills and can't be automated. Same thing with other vocations like computer fields.
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Post by naill on Aug 20, 2012 16:01:51 GMT -5
If engineering were a trade school, I would have gone into engineering. I love learning how stuff works, but its not something I do well by reading a book. I need to get my hand dirty to learn best. No, I meant a system similar to what doctors and lawyers do, where an engineer would get an engineering oriented undergrad degree, and then get advanced training in a grad school. Okay, but I am talking about getting to know the geometry because you need it for the application with which you are working toward and not being taught in a detached , abstract method.
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Post by zenmaster on Aug 20, 2012 16:19:03 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation. We're always going to need carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc. Those people have real skills and can't be automated. Same thing with other vocations like computer fields. I see what you're saying. I have the utmost respect for auto mechanics and I see them as highly skilled workers. Since I have no mechanical skills whatsoever, I think highly of their abilities.
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Post by herbhunter on Aug 20, 2012 17:03:24 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation. Factories need workers that can program CNC machines (I understand there is a shortage of qualified CNC operators) as well as maintain and repair them and other manufacturing machinery. Also, workers are needed to assemble the CNC and other robotic machines.
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Post by thedude on Aug 20, 2012 19:17:21 GMT -5
No, I meant a system similar to what doctors and lawyers do, where an engineer would get an engineering oriented undergrad degree, and then get advanced training in a grad school. Okay, but I am talking about getting to know the geometry because you need it for the application with which you are working toward and not being taught in a detached , abstract method. Most of the engineering disciplines require a lot of science and tons of crazy math just to take the classes. I don't think there is any way to learn any of that stuff without just grinding through it. Whether or not it's necessary or useful to even learn a lot of it, however, is another question.
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Post by lindaw on Aug 20, 2012 20:14:25 GMT -5
I think physicians come out of college with marketable skills. There are no physicans coming out of college. They come out with degrees like everyone else. They go to medical school to study medicine and post graduate intern and residencies to become physicians. Surgical residencies can last 5-7 years in some cases. This is the trade school of medicine. My friend started his residency in LA at the same time the riots happened in the 80s. Said he had a book in one hand and a scalpel in the other at times.
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Post by sordello on Aug 20, 2012 20:15:44 GMT -5
Cue: Chinese immigrants with Chinese government subsidized skills and low USA wages.
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Post by lindaw on Aug 20, 2012 20:16:17 GMT -5
Aren't job that require skills and trades being phased out? I am sure there will always be some trade jobs but I once learned that the the US has switched to a information based job market rather than a skilled labor job market as many positions have been replaced by automation. Factories need workers that can program CNC machines (I understand there is a shortage of qualified CNC operators) as well as maintain and repair them and other manufacturing machinery. Also, workers are needed to assemble the CNC and other robotic machines. My brother works for Intel in manufacturing. No degree. Pulls in well over 100K
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Post by lindaw on Aug 20, 2012 20:18:40 GMT -5
We're always going to need carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc. Those people have real skills and can't be automated. Same thing with other vocations like computer fields. I see what you're saying. I have the utmost respect for auto mechanics and I see them as highly skilled workers. Since I have no mechanical skills whatsoever, I think highly of their abilities. Dude, you and me both. My brother came out of the bathroom at our beach place this summer and said "you installed that towel rack right?" I said "yep". He said "Where's your screwdriver? "
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Post by lindaw on Aug 20, 2012 20:20:57 GMT -5
I've heard the 'pushing comes from the parents' excuse. I call it an excuse because it's the administration's job to keep the parents demands in-line and let the parents decide whether or not to keep their kids in that school. Tons of AP classes does not equal competing in the world, not by a longshot. That's the most quoted falsehood out there. Do you not think private schools accept students kicked out of public schools? My son's school has accepted kids kicked out of publics due to discipline issues, etc. What has happened almost universally is that kid completely turns around. Why? Smaller classes, more interesting subjects, a less-rejecting student body. I get what you're saying, but you're forgetting the other entity in the loop, and that's the school board and/or state. That's where it gets political and people make decisions that sound good but don't necessarily work. Remember, that's how we got all this standardized testing that most people don't think it works well or is outright counterproductive. Well aware. But that's not what's happening at my daughter's school. They are actually breaking state laws, not conforming.
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Post by lindaw on Aug 20, 2012 20:22:44 GMT -5
I agree with you here. The law and medicine are really trades. Same thing with engineering, actually, and I always thought there should be a similar type of grad school arrangement for engineers because a newly minted engineer with a bachelor's degree isn't really capable of doing any engineering yet. That usually comes with experience. If engineering were a trade school, I would have gone into engineering. I love learning how stuff works, but its not something I do well by reading a book. I need to get my hand dirty to learn best. You're a tactile learner then.
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Post by naill on Aug 20, 2012 20:36:53 GMT -5
Okay, but I am talking about getting to know the geometry because you need it for the application with which you are working toward and not being taught in a detached , abstract method. Most of the engineering disciplines require a lot of science and tons of crazy math just to take the classes. I don't think there is any way to learn any of that stuff without just grinding through it. Whether or not it's necessary or useful to even learn a lot of it, however, is another question. I do understand but this may just be eliminating the best engineers in favor of those who are good at school. I have always been drawn to the Socratic method.
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Post by naill on Aug 20, 2012 20:39:24 GMT -5
If engineering were a trade school, I would have gone into engineering. I love learning how stuff works, but its not something I do well by reading a book. I need to get my hand dirty to learn best. You're a tactile learner then. I guess if that's what it's called, Linda. It is how I have approached everything, including religon/philosophy outside the classroom. I once had a fellow student that he could study for the joy of study while I needed some practical application to keep my interest.
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Post by lindaw on Aug 21, 2012 7:11:58 GMT -5
You're a tactile learner then. I guess if that's what it's called, Linda. It is how I have approached everything, including religon/philosophy outside the classroom. I once had a fellow student that he could study for the joy of study while I needed some practical application to keep my interest. My husband is the exact same way. He learns by doing. I think it's a very practical way to learn as one tends to remember what they've learned. Schools are not set up to teach this way, unless they are technical schools. That's a shame as it's a very practical way to learn.
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